Archive for the “Metaphysics” Category
Aimless metaphysics of all sorts
Iowa’s Rep. Steve King is a faithful, devout Catholic — or so he says. He hews strictly to the RC hierarchs’ line on all things. One of those, is gays. You know, that class of human beings the hierarchs just a few days ago couldn’t stomach having to admit have any value as human beings (WebCite cached article) — even though Pope Francis had given them an opportunity to do so (cached). Like most of the bishops, Rep King also doesn’t think much of gays. As the Jefferson (IA) Herald reports, he made that very clear in an interview (cached):
U.S. Rep. Steve King, R-Kiron, suggests gays won’t make it to heaven.
What’s more, in an interview, King intimated that the divorced or cohabitators could be thwarted in the pursuit of eternal salvation as the Christian faith teaches it.
Those assessments from the conservative western Iowa congressman came during his forceful takes on a preliminary document released by a collection of Catholic bishops that calls for broader acceptance of homosexuals and people who are divorced or living together without being married.
“I would say that what was a sin 2,000 years ago is a sin today, and we need to stick to that principle,” King said in an interview with The Jefferson Herald.…
King declined to say whether he thought divorce or cohabitation are sins.
“I think that I’ll not comment on that part,” King said. “I’ll just say that what was a sin 2,000 years ago is a sin today, and people that were condemned to hell 2,000 years ago, I don’t expect to meet them should I make it to heaven. So let’s stick with that principle.”
Like a lot of Christians, King singles out gays for extra-special contempt, because — in Christians’ view — being gay is a “sin” and therefore gays are “sinners.” But it’s not clear how this actually makes gays appreciably worse than anyone else, because according to longstanding Christian doctrine — and as stated explicitly in holy scripture — all human beings are “sinners”:
… all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)
So if King is saying he doesn’t expect to see any gays in heaven because they’re all “sinners” who will never get there, then he’s also saying he won’t see anyone there, since everyone is a “sinner.” In fact, that means he, himself, can’t possibly get to heaven in the first place; heaven will be empty and void (of humans, anyway). This whole thing about him condemning the “sins” of some (i.e. gays) while being a “sinner” himself, calls to mind another scriptural passage:
Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him [Jesus], “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. 2 So what do you say?” They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:3-7)
As for things that were “sins” 2,000 years ago being “sins” today … that’s questionable. For instance, the Bible says slaves should be obedient and work hard, lest Christians and their God look bad if they don’t:
Those who are under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect, so that the name of God and our teaching may not suffer abuse. (1 Timothy 6:1)
Elsewhere, slaves are enjoined to be obedient and happy with their state:
Slaves, be obedient to your human masters with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ … (Ephesians 6:5)
Slaves, obey your human masters in everything, not only when being watched, as currying favor, but in simplicity of heart, fearing the Lord. (Colossians 3:22)
Modern civilization has totally rejected the idea of slavery, and believe it to be a repulsive institution, so the idea that it’s “sin” for slaves not to be totally obedient and cooperative is, likewise, repulsive to us, almost 2,000 years after these words were penned.
King’s nasty, hateful remarks sparked a backlash, as one would expect. His reaction to the feedback is, in a word, bizarre. He’s simultaneously claiming never to have said them, and claiming to stand by them (cached):
In response, King simultaneously stood by what he said and claimed that the story was “false” and had been “fabricated.”
“What I said was it’s between them and God. And I said what was a sin 2,000 years ago is a sin today. That was what I said. And I stand on what I said, and they’ve manufactured this,” he insisted.
Typical asinine doublespeak. It’s true, as the Jefferson Herald reported in its story, that King did mention the part about it being “between them and God.” But that’s entirely beside the point. When he says of gays that he doesn’t “expect to meet them should I make it to heaven,” he’s not conceding that some might end up there because “it’s between them and God.” He’s saying God will never allow them in! Also, it’s illogical for him to “stand on what [he] said” but then say his words were “fabricated” and “manufactured” by others. It’s just nonsensical.
King’s claim that his own attested words were “fabricated” places him in my “lying liars for Jesus” club. I’m sure he’ll be very happy there.
Photo credit: Wikimedia Commons.
Hat tip: Raw Story.
, christian right
, jefferson cty IA
, kiron IA
, religious right
, steve king
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As I’ve said so many times, the ubiquity of “ghost hunting” shows on television has caused the numbers of “paranormal investigators” in the US to proliferate ridiculously. Anyone can now grab a light meter or EMF detector and pretend to be able to locate ghosts, demons, specters, goblins, poltergeists, devils, orbs, wraiths, etc. Really, it’s anybody’s game now, since there are no specific methods, no rules, no certification, no specifics, no credentials … just tromp around like an idiot waving your device around and yammer about “entities” and “auras” and all of that assorted parapsychological gibberish.
Most of the time this is harmless stuff. Sure, you have the occasional bonehead standing on a railroad track waiting for a “ghost train” to come along only to be killed by a real one, or the occasional ghost-hunter who trespasses and gets arrested (WebCite cached article) … but for the most part the only cost is the amount of time paranormal investigators waste on their fluff and nonsense.
That said, the good people of the Cincinnati suburb of Blue Ash, OH are dealing with folks who think there’s a “portal to hell” there. As WCPO-TV reports, a neighborhood is disrupted and police have been getting lots of calls (cached):
There’s a portal to hell in Blue Ash.
That is, if you listen to paranormal investigators, teenagers and folks who like to get spooked.
“It’s one of the best known, but least seen, urban legends around here,” CreepyCincinnati.com blogger Rick Fenbers said. “A group of Satanists supposedly used to meet there in some type of altar room and conduct their rituals… They must have been pretty good, because the legend claims they managed to open a doorway to hell.”
But what Fenbers and others call “Satan’s Hollow,” neighbors and cops call a nightmare.…
“It’s rough on the homeowners,” Blue Ash Police Lt. Steve Schueler said. “People park in their driveway and try to get into the drainage system and nobody likes that. (The owner) has had to chase off some people, for sure.”
Now, if I were the superstitious type and truly thought this was an actual “portal to hell,” I definitely wouldn’t be going anywhere near it. So I’m not sure why “true believers” would want to venture there. Then again, their way of thinking is alien to me, so how could I hope to comprehend it?
The bottom line is that people need to fucking grow the hell up, put away the Mel meters and EVP recorders and all of that assorted trash, and get on with their little lives already. Don’t disrupt the lives of others just because you think you can venture into hell via a storm sewer just outside Cincinnati. Enough is enough, fercryinoutloud!
Photo credit: Rick Fenbers / CreepyCincinnati.Com, via WCPO-TV.
Tags: blue ash OH
, ghost hunter
, ghost hunters
, ghost hunting
, paranormal investigator
, paranormal investigators
, portal to hell
, rick fenbers
, satan's hollow
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I just blogged about some insane reactions to the Ebola outbreak. But now I’d like to comment on some Christianists using it as a promotional tool. This isn’t new for them, of course; their appeals to what I call “disaster theology” are old hat. There’s a reason they use this tactic: First, because people talk a lot about disasters and crises, and they’re well-covered in the media, so these guys hope to ride these stories to more attention than they’d have gotten otherwise; and second, because it’s a way of playing on fear, and fear is a way of hooking their audience, and — they hope! — reel in more donations.
The first example comes from Pastor John Hagee and is reported by Right Wing Watch with accompanying video (WebCite cached article):
“I want every American to hear this very clearly,” Hagee said, citing Joel 3 to warn that God will judge any nation that seeks to divide up Israel and declaring that “our president is dead set on dividing Jerusalem. God is watching and he will bring America into judgment.”
“There are grounds to say that judgment has already begun,” Hagee continued, “because he, the president, has been fighting to divide Jerusalem for years now.”
“We are now experiencing the crisis of Ebola,” he stated, as well as threats from Islamic radicals and even civil unrest in Ferguson, Missouri all as a result of God’s judgment on America due to Obama’s policies
Hagee is a rabid Christian Zionist, one of those Christians who claims to love and support Israel, but what they’re really doing is agitating for that nation to (somehow) trigger Armageddon. (Specifically, what they hope is that Israel will do something to elicit a massive attack from “the kings of the east” as related in Revelation 16:12.)
Now, I have no idea why he thinks President Obama is “dividing up Israel.” My guess is he’s referring to the “two-state solution.” Unfortunately for the obnoxious little troll Hagee, that isn’t Obama’s invention. Not at all! It actually predates him by decades. In fact, it predates even the creation of Israel. Its origins can be traced to the time of the British Mandate in Palestine, and the Peel Commission in 1937. Of course, that partition never happened, nor did the subsequent UN partition proposal which came along 10 years later. The current manifestation of the “two-state solution” began with the Oslo Accords in 1993; since then, it has been the policy of every US president — Democrat (Clinton, Obama) and Republican (the Younger Bush) — to pursue a two-state solution. It’s no more Obama’s policy than it was Bush’s or Clinton’s, nor is it (in principle, anyway) much different from any number of other plans that have been floated for the last few decades. (And I’ll leave alone the fact that Israel was “divided” in ancient times by the Hebrews themselves.) Why God would choose this particular moment to savage the country with Ebola, when Palestine-division plans had been tossed around for most of the 20th century and all of this one to date, isn’t really evident. At least, Hagee doesn’t bother to explain it.
The troll’s claims about Ebola being a pestilence sent due to “Obama’s” plan to divide Israel, conflict with what another pastor has said about it. A North Carolina pastor, Raw Story reports, says it’s because gay marriage is now legal, and the epidemic will grow worse as new states enact it (cached):
A Baptist pastor is warning that God will escalate the Ebola crisis when North Carolina begins performing same-sex marriages.
During his Sunday sermon following a series of court actions that effectively struck down North Carolina’s constitutional ban on marriage equality, Berean Baptist Church Pastor Pastor Ron Baity suggested that homosexuality was a sign of the End Times.
“So the book of the Revelation is about End Times events and what happens when this world is destroyed by fire, when the stars and the universe and the sun and the moon, like untimely figs cast from a tree, are just completely done away with and annihilated,” he said, telling his congregation to focus on what the Bible said would happen before that.
“Listen, folks, it’s on,” he announced. “You might as well get ready for it. It’s on. It’s just a matter of time when they’re going to say to the churches… It’s just a matter of time before our constitution in our churches will be overturned like our state constitution just been overturned this week. I mean, it’s coming.”…
“You think Ebola is bad now, just wait. If it’s not that, it’s going to be something else. My friends, I want you to understand, you can’t thumb your nose at God, and God turn his head away without God getting your attention.”
Of course, Baity threw into this sanctimoniously-outraged sermon the obligatory references to Sodom and Gomorrah, referring to the common Abrahamic-religious legend that YHWH incinerated those two cities because of homosexuality — even though this assumption isn’t really supported by the Bible itself. Like most Christofascists, little Ronnie is upset over the existence of gays and would rather they all went away so he wouldn’t have to deal with them or have to treat them like fellow human beings.
Expect more, not less, of this sort of thing as the Ebola crisis keeps getting the mass media’s attention. Fierce religionists aren’t going to turn up their noses at something that useful.
Photo credit: Wikimedia Commons.
Tags: barack obama
, berean baptist church
, disaster theology
, ebola epidemic
, ebola outbreak
, ebola outbreak 2014
, gay marriage
, john hagee
, pastor john hagee
, pastor ron baity
, president barack obama
, president obama
, ron baity
, san antonio TX
, winston-salem NC
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In case you hadn’t heard by now — and I assume most of my readers have — gay marriage is suddenly legal in a number of states (WebCite cached article). Naturally, this has brought the insanity out of the Religious Right, who just can’t tolerate the idea that gays should actually be allowed to live normal lives. I can hardly hope to catalog all the wingnutty craziness that has, and will, erupt from them over it. That would be impossible. Only Google has a data center with enough storage for that!
But I can report on one particular paranoiac reaction that defies history. It comes from the Bible Belt (er, Bobble Bay-elt) state of North Carolina; the Asheville Citizen-Times reports on some GOP functionaries’ reaction to a gay-pride flag flying over City Hall (cached):
A decision allowing that a two-story rainbow flag be flown at City Hall had more to do with supporting civil rights than jumping into political conflict over same-sex marriage, Mayor Esther Manheimer said Friday.…
Former City Councilman Carl Mumpower and Chad Nesbitt, a former chairman of the Buncombe County GOP, said council violated state open meetings law by not holding vote during an official meeting in public.…
Nesbitt and Mumpower in their statement included a depiction of a Nazi flag flying from City Hall.
“I am equating their methods with the Nazi movement,” Mumpower said. “They are indifferent to the rule of law and indifferent to the vote of the people. And that’s Adolph Hitler all over again in a different disguise.”
This is where I find it necessary to call a big fucking time out.
First, if the best these sanctimoniously-enraged good ol’ boys can come up with is to trot out an old reductio ad Hitlerum, their argument was over as soon as it began. The Right bellowing appeals to Hitler and the Nazis every time they’re confronted by something they don’t like, is exceedingly childish, and it’s long since gotten old. These guys desperately need new material — and fast.
Second, gay rights advocates absofuckinglutely are not Nazis, no matter how much one hates them. It’s not hard to understand why this is the case. It’s because, as I’ve blogged before, details matter. They have not taken over the federal government and then: 1) outlawed all other political parties; 2) nationalized state governments; 3) deployed their own militia out to control the streets; 4) abolished labor unions; or 5) arrested their opponents en masse and imprisoned them in concentration camps … just to name a few of the specific things the Third Reich did.
Third, Hitler and his minions in the Nazi party were certainly not friendly to gays. There is no goddamn fucking way they’d ever have flown a gay-pride flag over anything. Quite the opposite, they despised gays in every possible way! Gays were among those whom they first rounded up and imprisoned, then exterminated (along with Jews, Dom/Romani, and other minorities). One of the pretenses for Hitler killing Ernst Röhm, his head of the SA (i.e. the Sturmabteilung or “brownshirts”), was that he was gay. To suggest the Nazis might have done anything in support of gays, is contra-factual and idiotic.
Because of all this, I’m placing Mumpower and Nesbitt in my “lying liars for Jesus” club. I’m sure they’ll be happy to end up there, surrounded by lots of their fellow Christofascists who likewise have hurled ad Hitlerums around in ridiculous and juvenile fashion.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: I get it. Really. Honest, I do. I get that these hyperreligious nutcases don’t like gays. They don’t want to treat gays like human beings. They’d much rather not even know that gays exist. Gays creep them out. I understand that. I truly do. But … I don’t fucking care! The cold fact is that gays exist, they are human beings just like everyone else, and it’s fucking long past time for the world to accept it. These Religious Rightists don’t have to like it, and I doubt they ever will — but they do have to get over it and move on with their lives, fercryinoutloud. Just knock off the lying bullshit already.
Photo credit: PsiCop, based on original from quitor.com.
Hat tip: Raw Story.
Tags: ad hitlerum
, ad hitlerums
, appeal to nazis
, appeal to nazism
, argumentum ad hitlerum
, argumentum ad regnum tertium
, asheville NC
, carl mumpower
, chad nesbitt
, christian right
, gay marriage
, nazi party
, north carolina
, reductio ad hitlerum
, reductio ad regnum tertium
, religious right
, same-sex marriage
, third reich
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I recently blogged about male Hasidic Jews who threw a tantrum on a plane, and delayed a flight, because they refused to sit next to women. That’s not unusual for their wing of Judaism, since they’ve long refused to acknowledge the very existence of women. It’s also well-known that the Muslim world is home to similar sentiments.
While some Christians love to crow about this, and claim their treatment of women is so much better, the cold fact is that not all of them are very happy that women exist, either. Some Christian men also pretend women don’t exist and would wall themselves off from females, if they could. One cadre of godly Christian men who worked in a godly Christian school who felt that way, recently ran afoul of the law. The Free Lance-Star of Fredericksburg, VA reports on what they did, and on their trial and conviction (WebCite cached article):
Four hours into trial, four former staff members of a Caroline County boarding school changed their pleas to guilty and were convicted of misdemeanor assault and battery.
Fredericksburg residents Liam Galligan, 44, Jovany Rivera, 22, Timothy Jordan, 26, and 49-year-old William Honea were all given a 12-month suspended sentence and ordered to have no contact with any of the witnesses at Thursday’s hearing in Caroline circuit court.
Three of the men were prohibited from teaching at a school with minors for the next five years. Galligan, who had served as the interim director at Abundant Life Academy, was prohibited for teaching minors for 10 years.
The men were accused of committing a continuous assault on a 14-year-old male student at Abundant Life on Feb. 14 of this year.
The Free Lance-Star explains the reason for this attack:
The victim testified that after the three-hour assault, he was awakened every 90 minutes as part of his punishment for “talking to a girl,” which wasn’t allowed.
Defense attorneys simpered and whined that the court prevented them from explaining what happened and defending their clients … however, that’s because their clients stopped the trial after the prosecution rested and chose to plead guilty! In other words, their clients are, themselves, responsible for their own failure to explain what they’d done! (This kind of nerve and nonsensicality isn’t uncommon in defense attorneys. They live in a strange, alternate universe of their own; it’s best not to try understanding it, lest one go insane in the attempt.)
A better explanation for why these guys decided to cop a plea in the middle of their trial, is the evidence the prosecution offered, including a video — courtesy of WTVR-TV in Richmond VA (cached):
As it turns out, according to WTVR, this trial wasn’t the last of this case:
Investigators said their investigation is ongoing and more charges could be filed. In fact, deputies said Galligan faces 12 counts of child endangerment. He’s accused of making teenage boys stand in a swamp for extended periods of time.
I get that the students in this school were supposed to have been “troubled,” and a certain amount of rough handling might ensue from time to time; but I just can’t see how this kind of punishment can possibly be appropriate for a “crime” as trivial as “talking to a girl.” Please, enough of this already! Isn’t it time for religious nutcases to fucking grow the hell up and deal with the fact that human beings come in two varieties, male and female, and that the two occasionally will interact? What part of this is so damned impossible to accept?
P.S. I love the “12-month suspended sentence” which is, essentially, no sentence at all. Sure, the sentence also included injunctions against working in schools for periods of time, but that latter provision is the very least the judge could have ordered. The judge also ought to have ordered prison time — and by that, I mean real time, not just 30 days or something ridiculously light — ought to have been doled out for this child abuse. But alas, dis here is ol’ Virginny, ya see, ‘n’ ah reckon da judge don’ wanna put away a few good ol’ boys fer jus’ doin’ da Lord’s work, y’all.
Photo credit: WTVR-TV.
Hat tip: Friendly Atheist.
Tags: abundant life academy
, caroline county VA
, caroline cty VA
, fredericksburg VA
, jovany rivera
, liam galligan
, timothy jordan
, william honea
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Air travel is a nightmare these days, as everyone knows. What with TSA’s laughable “security theater” antics — which includes making passengers take off their shoes, belts, and throw away their coffees and sodas at security checkpoints — there’s the problem of cramped flights jammed with cranky people. Well, a bunch of ultra-Orthodox Jewish men on a flight from JFK in New York to Israel recently did their best to make this already-bad situation much worse for their fellow passengers. This debacle, Canada’s Shalom Life reports, stemmed from the fact that none of them would sit next to a woman (WebCite cached article):
Passengers aboard an El Al flight from New York’s JKF airport to Israel claim that hundreds of ultra-Orthodox passengers demanded that they trade places with them before takeoff, saying they cannot sit next to women.
“It was an 11-hour long nightmare,” one of the passengers summed up her experience.…
According to the passengers who were on the plane, their fellow ultra-Orthodox travelers refused to sit next to women prior to the takeoff, which not only delayed the flight, but caused actual chaos to ensue on the plane.
“People stood in the aisles and refused to go forward,” said Amit Ben-Natan, a passenger who was on board the plane.
“Although everyone had tickets with seat numbers that they purchased in advance, they asked us to trade seats with them, and even offered to pay money, since they cannot sit next to a woman. It was obvious that the plane won’t take off as long as they keep standing in the aisles.”
I’m not quite sure what horrific thing would have happened to any of these guys if they’d actually shut their faces and sat down next to women. Would they explode? Would they catch some kind of disease? Do they have “girl cooties” that the Haredi just can’t allow to infect them? What, exactly, is the point of this sort of juvenile and idiotic shit-fit? Someone please tell me, because I can’t figure it out. Perhaps that’s because I’m just a cynical, cold-hearted godless agnostic heathen and can’t comprehend such holy matters. Or whatever.
Something that didn’t help at all, was that the El Al flight crew actually indulged these incredible religionistic crybabies:
Passengers claimed that though the El Al flight crew informed them they do not have to agree to a switch, the flight’s captain said over the PA system that the flight would not take off as long as people were standing.
“This is completely inconsiderate of the non-haredi travelers. I don’t know many airlines that would allow their passengers to act like that,” said Bar Natan.
What Bar Natan said is true. I’ve never heard of any airline crew tolerating disruptive passengers, especially while a plane is still on the ground and they can kick the malcontents off easily.
Note that, even once the plane was in the air after they’d pitched their fit over the presence of women, the Haredi compounded it all by creating even more trouble while in transit:
It seems that after takeoff a large portion of the haredi travelers took to the isles to pray which, according to their fellow travelers, crowded the isles and caused the flight to be unbearable.
Again, it seems the flight crew indulged these guys because they allowed this to occur. Well done, El Al! How nice of you to bend over happily for your ultra-Orthodox brethren. Their irrational, childish, metaphysically-rationalized wishes, after all, are vastly more important than getting a plane in the air on time or making other passengers comfortable. The rest of the passengers must be treated like shit compared to the all-important Haredi. What they say goes, and everyone else can go fuck off. It’s mandatory … for some reason, again that I can’t fathom, and again that’s probably due to my being an insolent, cold-hearted godless agnostic heathen, not gifted with sacred insight into such godly matters.
Photo credit: Amit Ben Natan, via Shalon Life.
Hat tip: Peter at Skeptics & Heretics Forum on Delphi Forums.
, amit ben natan
, el al
, jfk airport
, separation of sexes
, ultra-orthodox jews
, ultra-orthodox judaism
, ultraorthodox jews
, ultraorthodox judaism
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The R.C. Church has been having trouble lately up in the Land of 10,000 Lakes. Archbishop John Nienstedt of St Paul and Minneapolis has been dealing with a few controversies over the last year or so. But something else has come up. As Minnesota Public Radio reports, a Catholic parish’s musical director was fired because he married his same-sex partner (WebCite cached article):
Archbishop John Nienstedt has asked the music director of a parish in Victoria, Minn., to resign after learning that the man married his long-time male partner last weekend, according to a letter from the parish priest [cached].
“Our beloved Director of Music, Jamie Moore, married his long-time partner Garrett this past weekend,” the Rev. Bob White, of St. Victoria Catholic Church, wrote in a letter to parishioners posted on the parish website this week. “Since Jamie’s marriage conflicts with official Church teaching, Archbishop Nienstedt asked for Jamie’s resignation.”…
In a written statement to MPR News, Nienstedt said he was “consulted about the employment matter and I responded by saying the teachings of the Church must be upheld, including the pastoral response of working with an employee whose actions are contrary to the Catholic faith.”
Note that these two accounts differ a bit. Rev White explicitly says Nienstedt asked for Moore’s resignation; the archbishop said he’d merely been “consulted” about it. Thus, Nienstedt implies it was the priest, not himself, who requested the resignation. Although he doesn’t exactly deny any involvement in the decision, he does downplay his part in it. The priest’s account, on the other hand, doesn’t suggest his role was anywhere near that remote.
Note that his Excellency’s thinking on the matter is clouded by his wingnutty beliefs about gays, which MPR News helpfully relates:
[Nienstedt] has also said that “homosexual inclination is a result of some psychological trauma” that occurs before the age of 3.
I have no idea what evidence Nienstadt has to support this insane hypothesis. I’d love for him to divulge it — if he dares. I doubt he will, of course, since there probably isn’t any.
Given Nienstedt’s nuttiness on the subject of gays, his refusal to rein in child-abusing priests, and the possibility that he or someone who worked for him may have destroyed evidence of kiddie-porn possession by one of his priests, I suspect the liar here is Nienstedt and not the Rev White. Although I certainly can’t be sure of that.
Photo credit: Jeffrey Thompson/MPR News.
Tags: arcbhbishop john nienstedt
, archdiocese of st paul and minneapolis
, catholic church
, fr bob white
, gay marriage
, jamie moore
, john nienstedt
, roman catholic
, roman catholic church
, st victoria parish
, st victoria parish family
, victoria MN
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